treasuredguardian
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Post by treasuredguardian on Jun 5, 2024 6:36:07 GMT
II and BFDI was already brought up so no point in hammering on the specifics of those shows other than we wish there was more nonbinary rep in shows that wasn't like, only transneutral. It's a wide umbrella and while it is good that the neu rep exists! But it so much feels like in minds of writers non-binary starts and ends with static & perfectly neutral identities. It's not even that a lot of not entirely neu NB identities are less known about, stuff like demi-gender & xenic gender is very known about! Not inherently NB, but genderfluid/flux & other kinds of multigender too. Hell even binary trans identities don't really get all too much explicit and undeniable rep in comparison. For the some of the non-BFDI/II prominent shows, I always cut the "1 nonbinary character" thing some slack. If only because certain ones were going off what was established years ago. I do agree there are definitely more non-binary identities to explore, and it shouldn't be limited to only one.
The binary trans ones? ...It's best I spare everyone of what I have to say regarding that. :']
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Post by Pony on Jun 5, 2024 7:28:13 GMT
Since a Few People Asked I Thought I'd Toss My ii Opinions Out There Before I'm AFK For a While. I Think ii is Really Haughty and Up It's Own Ass for Writing That is Pretty Often Subpar Quality. On Paintbrush Paintbrush is One of My Favorite ii Characters, Easily Top 3 I Love Them a Lot So It Pains Me to Say They Frequently are Written in a Way That is a Huge Fucking Bummer. The Constant Misgendering (and at One Point Even Using It/Its to Deliberately Dehumanize Them) is a Known Issue of ii and I Understand a Lot of It Was Written Out of Ignorance So I Don't Hold It Against Them (Too Much Lol) But It Is a Simple Fact That a Lot of Paintbrush's Transness Exists Purely in the Context of Mistreatment and Bigotry. This Persists Even After They Come Out, In The Overthinkers Paintbrush Only Even Says They're Nonbinary Because Yinyang Calls Them a Man. There is No Real Moment Where Paintbrush's Identity Gets to Exist in a Context of Respect and Normalcy, Its Either a Nonfactor or the Butt of a Joke Misgendering Them or Drama. Sad.  On The Shimmer Remember That the Fuckin Shimmer Egg is Nonbinary??? I Don't. No One Does Its the Fucking Plot Egg. Hatching the Plan is 30 Cool Minutes of Fan He/Himming the Egg Because He Has Nothing Going for Him and That's Fine I Frankly Don't Care About the Egg It's Just Funny. Speaking of Fan's Terrible Parenting Though... On Bot Ughhhh Fuck My Life Man I Hate This Thing. Now I Know Taylor Grodin is a Controversial Figure But I Remember Hearing Through the Grapevine That He Was Advocating for a Nonbinary Debuter and I Firmly Believe This Would've Solved a Lot of iii's Issues in Regards to Representation. None of ii's Trans Characters Get to Just Exist and Be Trans, Everyone Needs an Overwrought Coming Out Arc and God if Bot Doesn't Have This Problem BAD! Bot Being a Robot I Think Isn't Particularly an Issue Since a Lot of ii Characters are Technically Robots and It Basically Means Nothing, But I Get Why This is a Talking Point Because There Isn't Much Else to Say About Them Past This. Bot Transitions on Screen But Doesn't Gain Any Real Perspective or Personality or Anything From It, They Just Get Super Into Saying Nonsense Buzzwords About "Community" and "Identity" and Its Just Unbearable. This is Compounded By an Entire Episode Where Their Nothingburger Writing of Transness is Given Priority Over Cabby's Disability and It is Just Horrific to Watch. This Was Exactly What I Was Referring to Earlier When I Said That in the OSC LGBT Representation is Given Precedence Over Most Other Things and Will Have Some Very Ugly Results. Idk, Characters Need to Be More Than a Queer Identity to Hook Me and Unfortunately Everything Bot Is That Isn't a Buzzword Salad is Ableist or Dumb and I Just Don't Care. Crush Them Like a Bug I'm Out. Also Since She is Vaguely Relevant, Lightbulb Was Confirmed Trans on Some Brian Koch Livestream. I Don't Like Her and I Don't Really Care About This But It Would Be Cool if This Was Confirmed in an Actual Episode. Unlike Most Other Characters, She Doesn't Really Have That Many Pitfalls in Her Story (Other Than Her Own Wanton Transphobia Against Paintbrush) That Would Make Her an Offensive Transfemme Character. This is Because She Isn't Actually Trans and Will Continue to Not Be Trans Unless They Put Their Money Where Their Mouth Is and SAY IT IN AN EPISODE LOL.
Sorry This is So Negative, I'm a Negative Nancy and My Opinion of ii Gets Lower By the Day Haha |
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viscera zombie
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Post by viscera zombie on Jun 5, 2024 11:37:02 GMT
tbh i dont think Paintbrush and Bot are outright horrible but i can agree with the general consensus here that theyre... also not great. i think mainly i just dont like Bot as a character tho. its less to do with specifically them being bad nonbinary rep and more that i just think theyre a boring character in general and i really dont like their "mother/child" dynamic with Test Tube and Fan. feels a bit patronizing that out of the only 2 nonbinary characters in the show, one was revealed after nearly 2 whole seasons of distasteful gender jokes and the other is literally a robot who's more or less treated like a child and feels more like a half-baked trans allegory than an actual character (i mean, for a long period of time, they were quite literally written to make the audience think they were a different character... after the reveal that they're a robot it didnt feel like they were given any unique personality outside of BEING a trans allegory) I agree that neither of them are good rep and you all have good points. At the very least Paintbrush had a personality and motivations, so when III came and got rid of a lot of their nuance I was sorely disappointed... Especially that ONE episode. It's a shame, because while the jokes surrounding Paintbrush were definitely not tasteful and they pretty much got their plot cut short in the second season, they had potential. I can at least understand why this resonated with so many people. I can't really name many other trans object show characters that had this level of relevancy. 7_7 very true, very true. and i'll be the first to say (in fact i already have) that a character being trans doesnt have to be treated as a huge deal. like, you dont need to have a serious coming-out plotline or anything to still have your trans character be an Actual Character with Personality and Nuance. but II (specifically the second and third season) WANTED to treat it seriously, so it sucks that once season 3 rolled around it felt like they didnt even try. i'd be a whole lot less angry if Bot was an actual character. and thats another thing that gets me - and i'll sound like an angry alt-right cartoon critic here, but if your character's entire purpose is to be "the gay one" and you make no real effort to build on them beyond their orientation, that's probably just about as bad rep as confirming out of the source material because you either couldn't be bothered to write queerness or you randomly decided later on that you wanted them to be queer. the way II treats its trans characters feels a lot like the "bury your gays" trope- introduce a queer character or reveal a character as queer, and then shortly after kill them off (or in the case of II, eliminate them from the show). you cant write a nuanced character if the character isnt there to be written anymore. once Bot's entire existence as a trans allegory was finished and they had no more ideas for them they were just booted off in the most anticlimactic way possible! |
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viscera zombie
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Post by viscera zombie on Jun 5, 2024 15:28:42 GMT
But It Is a Simple Fact That a Lot of Paintbrush's Transness Exists Purely in the Context of Mistreatment and Bigotry. This Persists Even After They Come Out, In The Overthinkers Paintbrush Only Even Says They're Nonbinary Because Yinyang Calls Them a Man. There is No Real Moment Where Paintbrush's Identity Gets to Exist in a Context of Respect and Normalcy, Its Either a Nonfactor or the Butt of a Joke Misgendering Them or Drama. Sad. wow, i actually never considered it this way, but you're right. it would honestly be so easy for them to just NOT continue the "haha wtf is Paintbrush" jokes after them coming out. it would be so easy for them to just continue writing Paintbrush as a normal character that just happens to use they/them pronouns. if they really want it to be explicit like that, have them do something actually fucking positive for once, like maybe trying to help Bot find themselves and explaining that its okay to be C: None of the above. wasnt the entire point of them coming out that they, as a character, hated the way people viewed their gender?? |
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Post by Exit on Jun 5, 2024 18:08:47 GMT
Pony made a lot of the points that I would have, but there's one that I want to piggyback off of anyway. Now I Know Taylor Grodin is a Controversial Figure But I Remember Hearing Through the Grapevine That He Was Advocating for a Nonbinary Debuter and I Firmly Believe This Would've Solved a Lot of iii's Issues in Regards to Representation. None of ii's Trans Characters Get to Just Exist and Be Trans, Everyone Needs an Overwrought Coming Out Arc and God if Bot Doesn't Have This Problem BAD! This does not surprise me from Taylor at all. For one, electing to introduce nonbinary characters casually and respectfully (a la BFDI) seemed like it was the obvious "next step" for II after rectifying Paintbrush's treatment in Alternate Reality Show (S2E12), so it's just a logical idea. There's also the matter of how Taylor individually viewed trans characters in II. He made a pretty direct statement about it in 2018, while responding to criticisms of S2E12 that suggested Paintbrush should have directly stated items like their "label," pronouns, etc., and that Lightbulb should have had a more overblown reaction to said information; in his rebuttal, he emphasizes the fact that a) he does not believe in a "right way" for Paintbrush, or anyone, to come out, b) that he does not believe in a "right way" for anyone to react to coming out, and c) that people being LGBTQ should not be inflated into a "big deal" because it's perfectly fine--ergo, not a big deal. He places a lot of emphasis on this kind of thing being a person's (or character's) personal business, where there are no rules as to what needs to be said, and in turn, no need for overreaction from others. I said "individually" with purpose, because while we certainly don't have any statements of the same length from his cowriters, we have one of similar topic from Brian Koch, speaking about his contribution to an episode written by Justin Chapman (The Overthinkers, S3E4). In contrast to Taylor, Brian believes that it is important that the specific word "nonbinary" is stated by Paintbrush within the show. Its use in S3E4 (2021) had been planned for a little more than a year by Brian (2020) in his personal notes. As Pony mentions, Bot grows into a particularly egregious case of a character not just being allowed to exist and be trans, but have to spend all of their time being "about" it. Bot "stops being Bow" in Out of Body Experience (S3E8), and is confirmed to be nonbinary in Home Is Where the Heart Is (S3E12). Between S3E8 and the end of the season, the only episode that Taylor would write is Title TBD (credited with Adam Katz); he would part with AnimationEpic one month after its release. Logically, his perspective is not part of the way Bot is written following this, and I will argue that it shows. The overblown, overwrought way in which Bot is written seems contrary to his own ideas of how to handle nonbinary characters, but not to Brian and Justin's. I understand well why this is contentious for people, but Taylor was one of just four writers on II, so I don't think it's a stretch to observe that his absence as an important driver is noticeable in its production. This is one of the topics through which it really shows. Given that every II writer is cis, I find the "it's personal, and people should react coolly and respectfully" lens preferable to people with little personal experience sticking their neck out to try and write about coming out, transition, etc. in some detail, but that's just my opinion. =P |
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treasuredguardian
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Gaming in the Dark Pit of Despair
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Post by treasuredguardian on Jun 5, 2024 19:34:01 GMT
Very well said, Exit! I appreciate that you go out of your way to do some research and even cite your evidence whenever you can. :]
Again, I really do think it's worth emphasizing that when it comes to writing topics like these, there really is no definitive "right" way to go about it. And sometimes it doesn't need to be a big deal such as saying the stuff outright. I have said this many times, but I really do wish the OSC would grow out of this mentality when it comes to making a decent object show. Even now, we still have creators, while well meaning, try to insist that you can only really do it a certain way. I feel that only diminishes the creativity and growth of the community, especially if you are in a position where you can influence it. It's telling that the community is in a very uncertain state concerning these changes and rules that have been set in place for many, many years.
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Post by Pony on Jun 6, 2024 1:01:19 GMT
I have said this many times, but I really do wish the OSC would grow out of this mentality when it comes to making a decent object show. Even now, we still have creators, while well meaning, try to insist that you can only really do it a certain way. I feel that only diminishes the creativity and growth of the community, especially if you are in a position where you can influence it. It's telling that the community is in a very uncertain state concerning these changes and rules that have been set in place for many, many years. The Osc in General is So Stuck in Its Ways, We Greatly Lag Behind Similar Communities Who Have Existed for an Equal Timeframe. It Feels Like There is a Motivated Reason to Keep Us So Static and Its That Unremarkable Shows That are Just Older Can Coast Off of High Episode Count and Seniority Into Acclaim. Everyone Who Seems to Espouse This are Older Show Creators Who Haven't Made Much Actually of Note Afterall... |
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treasuredguardian
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Gaming in the Dark Pit of Despair
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Post by treasuredguardian on Jun 6, 2024 3:34:20 GMT
The Osc in General is So Stuck in Its Ways, We Greatly Lag Behind Similar Communities Who Have Existed for an Equal Timeframe. It Feels Like There is a Motivated Reason to Keep Us So Static and Its That Unremarkable Shows That are Just Older Can Coast Off of High Episode Count and Seniority Into Acclaim. Everyone Who Seems to Espouse This are Older Show Creators Who Haven't Made Much Actually of Note Afterall... Hit the nail on the head. As much as I think the creators mean well, I do worry about how they are going to handle such a large responsibility. I hope they understand at that some of the issues people have with the OSC come from a good place. I really want to be optimistic despite everything. |
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Post by CD on Jun 20, 2024 17:54:17 GMT
I know the exact reason for that plot being less criticized. It's more or less the same reasons I touched up in my quote to Pony. That and the OSC is pretty much hostile towards mentally ill people despite their claims. I would elaborate but that's going wayyyy off topic. Your right though. ;;; Oh God, I Know This Isn't the Main Subject of This Thread But I Think the Reason LGBT Rep Has Improved Over the Years and Mental Illness Rep Hasn't is That the OSC Has Grown Gayer and Transer Every Year, Right Off the Top of My Head I Can Pull Several Large LGBT Figures Involved in Popular Projects, But That Same Boom Hasn't Happened With Mentally Ill Creators and Most Criticism From Mentally Ill People Can Be Dismissed With "Well You're Nuts So..." Basically There is Still No Real Reason for People to Care Beyond Possible Drama Because They Have No Personal Experience With It and Will Receive Less Backlash for Ableism Than They Would Trans/Homophobia. Super late reply but yeah, for sure. I was being a bit tongue in cheek with my response because I can guess very well why people care more about one than the other. It really is sad when mental illness merely gets to exist to progress a plot. Especially in communities that pride themselves on being oh so accepting.  |
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Post by CD on Jun 20, 2024 18:07:17 GMT
On Bot Ughhhh Fuck My Life Man I Hate This Thing. Now I Know Taylor Grodin is a Controversial Figure But I Remember Hearing Through the Grapevine That He Was Advocating for a Nonbinary Debuter and I Firmly Believe This Would've Solved a Lot of iii's Issues in Regards to Representation. None of ii's Trans Characters Get to Just Exist and Be Trans, Everyone Needs an Overwrought Coming Out Arc and God if Bot Doesn't Have This Problem BAD! Bot Being a Robot I Think Isn't Particularly an Issue Since a Lot of ii Characters are Technically Robots and It Basically Means Nothing, But I Get Why This is a Talking Point Because There Isn't Much Else to Say About Them Past This. Bot Transitions on Screen But Doesn't Gain Any Real Perspective or Personality or Anything From It, They Just Get Super Into Saying Nonsense Buzzwords About "Community" and "Identity" and Its Just Unbearable. This is Compounded By an Entire Episode Where Their Nothingburger Writing of Transness is Given Priority Over Cabby's Disability and It is Just Horrific to Watch. This Was Exactly What I Was Referring to Earlier When I Said That in the OSC LGBT Representation is Given Precedence Over Most Other Things and Will Have Some Very Ugly Results. Idk, Characters Need to Be More Than a Queer Identity to Hook Me and Unfortunately Everything Bot Is That Isn't a Buzzword Salad is Ableist or Dumb and I Just Don't Care. Crush Them Like a Bug I'm Out. I didn't get far into III myself but whatever I've seen anything of Bot I couldn't help but sigh LOL. You said it pretty well. Who even is Bot outside of being a trans allegory by some cis men? I'm not even against cis people writing about trans people and (to an extent) their experiences. I wouldn't even doubt that there's other trans people in the team that could've had input. But you have to understand how much I laughed when I first say Bot put on that "they/them" sticky note (?) on themselves and it felt like a damn parody of what a Trans Positive Sentiment by a Cis Person feels like. They try way too hard and somehow not at all to a point where It gets annoying. Just let them be people!!! *rolls eyes* Also the way you describe them reminded me of this tweet which sums up how I feel too. LOL Also Since She is Vaguely Relevant, Lightbulb Was Confirmed Trans on Some Brian Koch Livestream. I Don't Like Her and I Don't Really Care About This But It Would Be Cool if This Was Confirmed in an Actual Episode. Unlike Most Other Characters, She Doesn't Really Have That Many Pitfalls in Her Story (Other Than Her Own Wanton Transphobia Against Paintbrush) That Would Make Her an Offensive Transfemme Character. This is Because She Isn't Actually Trans and Will Continue to Not Be Trans Unless They Put Their Money Where Their Mouth Is and SAY IT IN AN EPISODE LOL.
Yeah this always bugged me too. I know people, especially younger teenagers who want any rep they can get, just want to see their faves be trans. So I don't blame people who are happy about this fact. But out of all things, I don't need something with the history of Trans Representation that II has to pull a "Yeah sure this character can be trans" based on nothing but fan theories. It doesn't look good man! It really doesnt! |
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viscera zombie
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Post by viscera zombie on Jun 20, 2024 22:02:45 GMT
On Bot Ughhhh Fuck My Life Man I Hate This Thing. Now I Know Taylor Grodin is a Controversial Figure But I Remember Hearing Through the Grapevine That He Was Advocating for a Nonbinary Debuter and I Firmly Believe This Would've Solved a Lot of iii's Issues in Regards to Representation. None of ii's Trans Characters Get to Just Exist and Be Trans, Everyone Needs an Overwrought Coming Out Arc and God if Bot Doesn't Have This Problem BAD! Bot Being a Robot I Think Isn't Particularly an Issue Since a Lot of ii Characters are Technically Robots and It Basically Means Nothing, But I Get Why This is a Talking Point Because There Isn't Much Else to Say About Them Past This. Bot Transitions on Screen But Doesn't Gain Any Real Perspective or Personality or Anything From It, They Just Get Super Into Saying Nonsense Buzzwords About "Community" and "Identity" and Its Just Unbearable. This is Compounded By an Entire Episode Where Their Nothingburger Writing of Transness is Given Priority Over Cabby's Disability and It is Just Horrific to Watch. This Was Exactly What I Was Referring to Earlier When I Said That in the OSC LGBT Representation is Given Precedence Over Most Other Things and Will Have Some Very Ugly Results. Idk, Characters Need to Be More Than a Queer Identity to Hook Me and Unfortunately Everything Bot Is That Isn't a Buzzword Salad is Ableist or Dumb and I Just Don't Care. Crush Them Like a Bug I'm Out. I didn't get far into III myself but whatever I've seen anything of Bot I couldn't help but sigh LOL. You said it pretty well. Who even is Bot outside of being a trans allegory by some cis men? I'm not even against cis people writing about trans people and (to an extent) their experiences. I wouldn't even doubt that there's other trans people in the team that could've had input. But you have to understand how much I laughed when I first say Bot put on that "they/them" sticky note (?) on themselves and it felt like a damn parody of what a Trans Positive Sentiment by a Cis Person feels like. They try way too hard and somehow not at all to a point where It gets annoying. Just let them be people!!! *rolls eyes* Also the way you describe them reminded me of this tweet which sums up how I feel too. LOL Also Since She is Vaguely Relevant, Lightbulb Was Confirmed Trans on Some Brian Koch Livestream. I Don't Like Her and I Don't Really Care About This But It Would Be Cool if This Was Confirmed in an Actual Episode. Unlike Most Other Characters, She Doesn't Really Have That Many Pitfalls in Her Story (Other Than Her Own Wanton Transphobia Against Paintbrush) That Would Make Her an Offensive Transfemme Character. This is Because She Isn't Actually Trans and Will Continue to Not Be Trans Unless They Put Their Money Where Their Mouth Is and SAY IT IN AN EPISODE LOL.
Yeah this always bugged me too. I know people, especially younger teenagers who want any rep they can get, just want to see their faves be trans. So I don't blame people who are happy about this fact. But out of all things, I don't need something with the history of Trans Representation that II has to pull a "Yeah sure this character can be trans" based on nothing but fan theories. It doesn't look good man! It really doesnt! they would never let Lightbulb be explicitly trans in the actual show because theres only a few episodes left of season 2 and its not enough time to rewrite her entire personality and give her an overdramatic coming out arc |
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mintykiwi
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Post by mintykiwi on Jul 8, 2024 12:28:49 GMT
II and BFDI was already brought up so no point in hammering on the specifics of those shows other than we wish there was more nonbinary rep in shows that wasn't like, only transneutral. It's a wide umbrella and while it is good that the neu rep exists! But it so much feels like in minds of writers non-binary starts and ends with static & perfectly neutral identities. It's not even that a lot of not entirely neu NB identities are less known about, stuff like demi-gender & xenic gender is very known about! Not inherently NB, but genderfluid/flux & other kinds of multigender too. Hell even binary trans identities don't really get all too much explicit and undeniable rep in comparison. Seeing orientation related stuff would be cool too and there's a severe lack. The dream is seeing a poly relationship in a show one day. Though we are interested where Cracklin & Chief end up in ION. We're actually not really fully invested in the pairing in show content only lens just yet, but it's been just 3 episodes. Not that "fully invested" means boredom or not relating though, many of us relate hard because we're also autistic, queer and many of us get crushes very easily. Whoops. We wonder if Sylvia's biromanticism will ever come up within the story itself, even if for the tiniest bit. We love her, sorry. Object comics seem to be the thriving ground for queer characters, but fork found in kitchen. Struggling to articulate our thoughts on that, though. i'm planning on putting a poly relationship in best object trivia buds (my object show VN) between catfood, shroom, and hourglass, but you didn't hear it from me cat food is the chaotic one, hourglass is the straight man (only metaphorically. they're bi) and shroom is the quiet one who watches it all unfold with popcorn they live together with hourglass's brother (aloe) as well as his ex (triangle) and her girlfriend (fossil) and in the actual game they find an alien and unfortunate things happen to them |
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objectirl
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Post by objectirl on Jul 9, 2024 17:47:45 GMT
Someone remind us to eventually share our thoughts about Animatic Battle. That or just ramble on about it too
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mintykiwi
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Post by mintykiwi on Jul 10, 2024 11:38:20 GMT
Someone remind us to eventually share our thoughts about Animatic Battle. That or just ramble on about it too i just started watching episode one... i likge bowling ball |
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objectirl
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Post by objectirl on Jul 15, 2024 8:21:53 GMT
Someone remind us to eventually share our thoughts about Animatic Battle. That or just ramble on about it too There's honestly not too much to say other than "it's neat a portion of the cast is some form of off-binary" and "never really expected to see no/pre vocal trained trans women characters for a while, that's pretty good". We do really appreciate it for being there, but it's kind of hard to even notice? Perhaps it's just our weird shitty attention span. But apart of it is also that reality shows kind of really don't lend themselves to this sort of thing, so very rarely do you get to have anything more than "oh this character uses these and these pronouns" or some visible transness like Doorstopper & Printer. We feel like all the options for this particular format of object media are sort of, exhausted? This is in no way at all a complaint about preexisting rep, but man, it would suit even the simpler kinds more to also be in some sort of non-comp show. And the more indepth stuff is practically, as gamers would put it, "free" if you know what you're doing in more character focused formats. Because characterization exists mostly to move the actual game along for compshows. Apology #1000000 if any of our wording is weird and convoluted you know the autism drill by now
Edit: exhausted refers to the way this sort of stuff can be approached (atleast for gender), not the actual identities being there. By all means keep putting genderqueer characters in it's awesome Edit 2: also our current AB thoughts will definitely not be our *final* AB queer rep thoughts, the show is in it's "baby" stage after all. There is a chance that more stuff of note appears, and when that comes, we'll probably share our thoughts on that.
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